Since I wrote about my first ever experience at a Sounders match I’ve been talking with Greg Mockos, one of the co-presidents of Emerald City Supporters about doing an interview with him. It was my idea to do it over a beer, so last Friday I made the trip out to Pioneer Square where the ECS home bar Fuel is, and wouldn’t you know an interview turned into a conversation. I’ve transcribed almost all of the interview here, and I’ve left almost all of the content here. I apologize for the length, but Greg is an interesting guy, and parsing his words seemed blasphemous.
So here we go
Casey: How many members are in ECS?
Greg: We count membership as a person who has bought a membership package at one point in time. We feel like that gives you your privileges. We don’t require you to pay every time. In fact, you don’t have to buy a membership package to be considered ECS. As long is you’re in the section chanting and supporting we consider you part of the family, it’s just that the membership package gives you privileges like: forum access, priority seating for away trips, discounted pricing on gear. When we buy US Open tickets our members get the cheapest prices out there because we don’t mark it up, and we don’t have Paypal fees. But overall it’s about 4,400 members. This year about 2,800 have renewed. Last year we had about 2,000 buy the 2011 membership. When I say renewed, 2,800 bought the 2012 membership. That’s a combination of renewals and new people, but we’ve seen steady growth. We went from 40 or 50 people going to USL games, and now we’ve got this, and we’ve seen progressive growth every year.
Casey: How did ECS start?
Greg: The founder is Sean McConnell who took a group, originally called The Pod, and decided to rehash it and change the style. The Pod was more family friendly, we wanted a more young adult crowd, a more edgy crowd. He did that back in 2005 with a few other of his cohorts. He’s still co-president. He’s kind of transitioning out, because he’s done a lot of work and it’s time for next generation.Emerald City Supporters really was founded in 2005. So they had a good solid three seasons in USL. I came toSeattle in 2007 and met up with Sean and Keith Hodo, the other co-president. Now we have a new kid named McKenzie Clark, and he’s going to be like one of the three pins, we share duties. Keith Hodo, Sean and I met in 2007, and I expressed interest in getting involved, and from there came the idea of a membership package. We went on our first bus trip, one semi-full bus to Portland back in USL, fell in love with it, and decided ‘let’s make this something special, let’s get our ducks in a row when MLS comes around’ and when MLS came around we were ready to start, and had the infrastructure and logistics set up to do it. Other groups inSeattle popped up, they popped up after 2009 (when Sounders FC joined MLS), and they had to deal with an already incumbent supporters group in ECS. Deal with, I mean it’s not a competition, they have different styles and we don’t try to steal eachother’s members. But we obviously had the roots well set, the relationships set, and we kind of evolved. We have a newsletter, and I’m doing a piece on the history of ECS since 2008. There’s a lot of people in the group right now that still don’t know what we went through. I’m literally writing about meeting Sean McConnell and Keith Hodo, what happened 2008, 2009, the awesome expansion year. I do one year per newsletter.
Casey: What’s the difference between ECS and other supporter groups?
Greg: The other groups are Gorilla FC, North End Faithful, Eastside Supporters, they’re all pretty small groups, but they all do a different thing. One is more family friendly, one is in the north end, one is more about charity work. We’re a big group, that’s obviously the main difference. I also feel that we have a lot of people that have a lot of experience in supporter culture in Europe and around that world that have been able to provide insight to help direct the group. We have a lot of subgroups that are all regional and non-regional, and they all manage themselves but they augment all our numbers.
Casey: This may sound like a stupid question, but how do you feel about comparisons to the movie Green Street Hooligans?
Greg: I was hoping for more original questions Casey! I’ve had that question a lot. ‘Are you guys hooligans?’ No. Basically, there are certain core principals that kind of culture is based on. One of those is obviously the insane love for your team and the desire to not attract attention to yourself, but to unite yourself and your voice, your color, your flags, together with a thousand or two thousand other people, to express your passion for the club. The reason we do our big flags and our tifos, the reason we sing in groups, is we want to magnify each individual person’s love for the team. We have a lot of side prospects, like charities, and we have a soccer club, but that’s to create community. The main goal is to express your passion for the team. I bet you’ve been frustrated—I know I have—when you go to a sporting event by yourself and you want to say something, you want to communicate something to the team, you want to express your appreciation or displeasure in a decision the general manager made. You by yourself in Safeco Field, nobody is going to hear you. But if you had a group of 200-300 people, you could send those messages in unison. The messages are supportive 99 percent of the time, obviously, but they can also be used for constructive criticism. Though it’s a franchise we feel that we actually have a stake in the club, and that makes soccer different than other American sports.
Casey: You literally have a stake in it though, as I understand it, because you’re an Alliance Council Member?
Greg: The Alliance Council is a work in progress. It can become something, because it’s a franchise system though it may never become what Drew Carey envisioned, like in Barcelona, where literally they are the ones that run the club. The Alliance Council is used for game day atmosphere input. Should we play the national anthem here, or there, should we have the band play during the game, should we have artificial noise? A lot of things that we, and the people in ECS have pushed is to really keep the game pure. When did you start going to Sounders games?
Casey: Just this year.
Greg: Two or three years ago they had a lot of Seahawks production elements. You go to a Seahawks game and there is a lot of fucking production. You know “MAKE SOME NOISE,” and that kind of crap, which in soccer is despised because it makes you look gimmicky. We don’t want to look gimmicky. We don’t want to look gimmicky, we want to remain true. We want to stay true, true to the little green rectangle and the 90 minutes that we play soccer without distractions. The council has been a good, useful tool on that side. The supporter groups don’t deal through the council. We have our own contacts. I developed a relationships with the other co-presidents, and we work directly on our deals. That’s a pretty open decision, it’s not a secretive, back door thing. The Council aspires to be something awesome and unique and it is something awesome and unique, but it’s still a work in progress.
Casey: I love the fan experience at Sounders matches, what do you think separates that from other Seattle sports?
Greg: Soccer in my opinion, this is my opinion not ECS’s, is more a game of willpower. You have to run for 90 minutes, you have to keep running, keep being aggressive, and it’s less reliant on skill. Baseball is a skill sport, there’s some athleticism, but I don’t feel like chanting at a baseball is going to push performance every night. But in a soccer match, it’s going to push Rosales, when he’s feeling a little bit lazy, to make that extra sprint in the 90th or 92nd minute. That’s what we feel we bring. We feel that we push the team, and we know that we push the team. There’s been many times where our support was top notch, and the players have commented “I can’t give up when the fans are doing that.” To me it’s just the difference in the sports, and it’s innate, you can’t change it. The Sounders did a good job approaching different demographic, a demographic the Mariners don’t care about. My demographic. Let’s just be frank about it, correct me if I’m wrong.
Casey: Speak freely, I’m a Mariners fan but I think the ownership group is a fucking joke.
Greg: I’m an American. I know the place in history and the sports scene that soccer has. I’m not one of those guys that’s like ‘screw baseball, it’s killing soccer.’ But I do feel the Sounders appeal to an urban fanbase, they’re young, have money to spend, and it’s a cheap product compared to other American sports. And it’s a central, easy-to-access stadium with a lot of bars. Groups like us, I’d love to say that we rely just on 100 percent passion, but passion is lubricated with alcohol. Alcohol and beer partnerships, where you get to know people, that’s a big deal. When you go to Mariners games you go by yourself, or with your family, and you leave. You may know the other season tickets around you, but only if you’re an old school guy. But I know, and this is applicable to many people, there’s a sense of community here. ‘I know you, I’ve seen you before, let’s hang out outside of this’ and that’s where the community is a network beneath the sport.
Casey: You guys have created a drinking culture, which sounds worse than I mean it, but you create a festive atmosphere. You’ve been to soccer matches outside of the US, what is the place of alcohol outside of the US?
Greg: It really depends on the culture. In Italy (where Greg is from) there’s not much. But that’s because they have stadiums that are decrepit, so there’s not restaurants or bars or concessions. When I used to go there was hardly any drinking. There, it’s an ingrained passion. It’s a style of life. Just try to imagine a culture in America where the love for basketball, baseball, football, and hockey are all wrapped up into one sport. That’s what it is over there. Soccer in the world dwarfs everything else. You have that one thing to focus on. You have this amazing passion, and people just go there mindlessly for their team. One of the many reasons the Sounders are popular is because we had some tradition here. I’ve never been to a game in Europe outside of Italy, but there’s others that have traveled, and have been in those situations, and for exampled drinking is huge inGermany, drinking beer, but I wouldn’t be able to speak for it personally. I wouldn’t say it’s a huge part of the culture here, but it’s part of the culture. It’s almost expected ‘oh, soccer supporter, where’s your beer?’
Casey: Do you think that image is derogatory? Do people look at it as a group of drunks?
Greg: No, no.
Greg: Well there are some, but those are probably the kind of people that go to Mariners games.
Greg: Sorry, Sorry.
Casey: You’re preaching to the choir man, I’d like more of that at Mariners games. I’m going to use that quote though.
Greg: You have the bullpen (at Safeco), which is a riot, I have a great time at the bullpen. Great looking women, a lot of beer, but you can’t tell me you’re there to watch the game.
Casey: That’s what I hate about it, as a baseball fan.
Greg: It would be great if you had a whole section out there in right field or something, that had four dollar Bud Light, or whatever baseball fans drink.
Greg: We’re not a bunch of meat heads. We’re conscious of the fact we’re trying to build communities in the bars or in the neighborhoods, and drinking is part of that.
Casey: What’s the best or funniest tifo that you’ve ever seen at a match?
Greg: Our own tifos are typical much more about a serious message, an inspirational message, so I wouldn’t describe them as funny. They’re huge, they’re quality, they’re great. The Chicago Fire’s Section 8 did a funny little tifo that was Super Mario Brothers. You should research it, you can see the video to better describe it. I thought it was pretty funny, I giggled when I saw it. That’s the philosophical difference too. I have a big hand in tifo displays in our group, as well as everyone else in leadership. Rob Scott is who does our choreographies. Tifo is a bigger term, it goes for everything, it’s from the Italian word tifosi. Tifosi means fans. It comes from the word tifare which means to support. Tifo is just a generic term to encompass everything, but the actual displays are called choreographies. I as well as others influence what gets made a lot, and what we want is something that will raise the hairs on the back of your neck, that a player will see and say ‘damn, that’s fucking inspiring. I’m going to fucking play to that level.’ We have an excellent rate when we do our tifos. We’ve only lost once, and we’ve done something like 30 tifos by now, so it tells you something, it sets the tone for the day, or the season. So our tifos aren’t funny, they’re inspirational. Kind of like an ESPN slow motion documentary, you know what I’m saying? You get pumped, and it’s like ‘damn.’ I want to see something that inspires the players first, something that celebrates the Sounders and the city ofSeattle, its people, and their spirit, and lastly, if it can be done all in one, also take a dig at the opposing team. The Decades of Dominance tifo we did last year, that was huge. I probably did 20 interviews, six radio interviews, I was with Keith Hodo in Sports Illustrated. Grant Wall from Sports Illustrated hung out here (at Fuel) for two hours. But that was a great display. Decades of Dominance with a crushed Portland logo in your hand. Players from past generations and present were called on to make an impact on that night. Unfortunately we tied 1-1. The noise in the stadium was like ten-fold, it was amazing. That was one of my proudest moments being in ECS. Being able to pull that off, in a huge match, in a thunderstorm basically, with it raining fucking cats and dogs, and to pull that off is… amazing.
Casey: How do you coordinate something like that?
Greg: It takes a lot of work. We have a team that does just tifo, flags and all that stuff is just one sector of the ECS. A very important sector. I want to say that display took about 60 people to execute, and probably 200 people had their hands in painting, or sewing, and it was just a matter of getting some artists together, telling them a concept, and getting that concept on a big banner. The technique we use is a bit in-house, we don’t want to share it, but it’s nothing revolutionary, it’s not fucking rocket science. I mean, it’s painting a giant banner. But I don’t think many other people have been able to pull it off. It just takes a lot of time, it’s very simple if you have the time and the money to do it. It’s all self funded, we pay for it ourselves.
Casey: I was at the White Caps home match, and that display was the biggest I’ve seen.
Greg: That was a decent display. We really went huge that time against Portland. People expect us to go bigger, and we’re not at that size yet. But the White Caps display was a good display. That was the first home Cascadia Cup match. We just wanted to set the tone with the players. Last year we were champions, we expect the same this year. Secondly, we wanted to tell the White Caps that they’re shit, and have no money.
Casey: I love that. That attitude doesn’t exist in any other Seattle professional sport.
Greg: Other sports are watching what the Timbers Army and ECS are doing, and other groups, but mostly us two. We’re trying to out-compete each other. They do some things better, we do some things better. The NBA has been in town, baseball hasn’t, because baseball is very traditional.
Casey: I think the King’s Court may be pulling a little bit out of your bag of tricks.
Greg: I don’t know, we never got contacted about anything like that.
Casey: You have to see the similarities, though.
Greg: Oh ya.
Casey: The King’s Court is amazing, too, but it’s post ECS, significantly post ECS. It was mid last year.
Greg: I thought it was a good idea. I do know this, I’m on the advisory board for the Sounders, and those owners are like a who’s who in theSeattle sports community, and I’m sure those guys all talk. I was invited to go to a summit the NBA had down in Portland. They had the Timbers Army speak, my counterpart in the Timbers Army presented. I had my buddy from Italy in town so I couldn’t make it. They wanted to ask us how we create this sense of community, sense of loyalty, and returning season ticket holders. I’ve had college football teams contact me to ask me how to organize, because college football fans are a fertile ground for what we do. In fact, inEurope, we’re old geezers. InEurope, most the people in groups like this are 16 to 22 years old. The only thing we do in America that’s comparable is college basketball. They create a section in their stadium with low cost seats, and let some things slide in there. Don’t go kicking people out because they said the word “shit.”
Casey: Several months ago when I went to my first Sounders match I noticed something unlike anything I’d ever experienced, when on goal kicks people would yell “you suck asshole!” After I wrote the article I got a lot of negative feedback from people saying that the ECS doesn’t condone that convention. Why is that?
Greg: We don’t think it’s a creative chant. It has nothing to do with us trying to comply with politically correct standards. We just don’t think anything good comes from it. We have other chants that are stronger, tougher, and more clever that don’t need cuss words. Cussing for the sake of cussing because you can’t normally cuss in society and 5000 other people are cussing, to me that’s not appealing. That’s not the type of people we attract, and it’s as simple as that. It’s not creative, and we can do better. We do use cuss words in some of our songs to get a point across, no doubt about it, but that’s not the main point. Many people like to go to a match and liberate frustrations, they think they can say “fuck you” and “asshole.” We’re not those kind of people. It’s about pushing the Sounders for 90 minutes. It’s not about liberating a personal stress. I use soccer to relieve myself of the week’s stress at work, but I channel it towards the team. I just say “Fucking Win!” You know the team’s amped up when they come out of the tunnel to that ‘Boom Boom Clap.” It’s amazing. ‘C’monSeattle, fight, win,’ the whole stadium sings it.
Casey: What is your favorite ECS chant?
Greg: The one that sounds like ‘Yellow Submarine,’ I like that one because it uses flags, gets the whole stadium involved, it’s very effective, and you can sing it for a long time. ‘Seattle Sounders’ is a nice chant, but you’re not saying much.
Casey: I just realized the other day that the chant sounded like Yellow Submarine, and then I looked it up on the app on my phone. You guys have a lot of infrastructure for a volunteer organization.
Greg: Keith and I were very adamant when we came into the group that we had to organize, we had to divide our talent. We have a group that does away travel, a group that does tifo, a group that does marketing, a group that does charity, a group that does newsletters and social media, we have a group that does the website, a group that does membership and merchandise, and a leadership group, and each one of those groups has a representative in the leadership. That’s very important. In the world of business today there are a lot of companies that are three or four person companies and they make millions of dollars, but they don’t create a sense of community. Community takes a lot more time, effort, and leg work. I’m a firm believer that if if I have five people working at ECS I can get 500 people to be the core community, if I have ten people I can get 1000. At some point we’re going to reach a limit and we’ll just have to worry about the core that our leadership group can sustain. We’re not necessarily models of support in leadership, we create a structure in which people can support their best, at their convenience, and where people want to fall in that structure is up to them. If someone just wants to paint, or sing, or travel, [we have supporters that do that]. We have supporters that are crazy, we had 15 people go down toTrinidad and Tobago, that’s amazing to me. You leave on a Thursday to travel away to see your team. We have the best away support in the league. So people fall where they want, some people just want to go on game day, some people want to volunteer, or organize soccer. We have nine teams that play amateur soccer. That’s a huge deal to us because ultimately our dream is to get into the US Open Cup and compete, and possibly eliminate the Timbers someday, I bet we could.
Casey: What if the ECS team had to face the Sounders? Do you throw that game or what?
Greg: I’ve always thought about that. We would play a non-offensive formation. I don’t know. We’d get trounced, I mean, the Sounders are quality. I’ve thought about that in the back of my mind. But to get a team into the competition would be a historical achievement in my mind. But it shows that the love for the team is on all different levels: It’s on game day, when we’re making flags and banners on our own time, when we’re playing soccer. We’re spreading the Sounders religion, word, and culture of winning.
Casey: I’m going to ask you why I think that soccer has been so successful in Seattle, but I’m going to give you my opinion first. I played soccer growing up, I wasn’t good at it, but it’s a pretty inclusive sport. Whatever age or skill level you are, you can play soccer. Seattle is a very inclusive, accepting city. I’m sure you’ve been asked this, and I’m sure it is as bad as the Green Street Hooligans question, but why do you think soccer has been so successful in Seattle?
Greg: I gotta say this first. Soccer and MLS is at a whole other level here in Seattle. Don Garber, the commissioner of MLS almost shed a team on opening night of the team. This is what he always dreamtsoccer would be in this country. MLS used to cater to suburban mothers. Soccer moms. They’d bring their kids to the game, and that was the business plan. There are millions and millions of kids playing soccer. They figured they get them to the game, they’d fall in love with it, and they’d take their kids when they were 30. What they realized in Toronto before us was that catering to urban types like me creates an amazing product. The product of MLS isn’t the game on the field. The product is the game day experience. The game, and the time you have at the stadium. I follow international soccer, and I followJuventes. I love Juventes, and I never won’t. They’re my team. They’re my team and the Sounders are my team. But international soccer makes MLS soccer look mediocre. But what brings it to another level is the time you have at the game, the sense of ownership you have. And that’s what MLS has evolved to. They’ve gone from saying ‘look, we have all these old retired stars, you should like them’ to ‘let’s have a good time at the game, let’s have a fucking party at the game,’ and that’s where we’re at now in Portland, Montreal, Vancouver, Seattle, Toronto, some of the newer franchises have great attendance because people go to the game to watch decent soccer, not the best soccer, and guess what? They also have a good time. One of the reasons the Sounders are successful is because they were able to capture that. It’s a downtown stadium with all the bars, it’s very accessible. It’s one of the easiest stadiums to access, even among NFL stadiums. Second, they appeal to an urban fanbase. In Seattle we like things that are different, a somewhat liberal fanbase. A fanbase that may have grown up with soccer. Another reason is the NASL Sounders, a lot of guys in our group say ‘my dad, or my grandpa followed the NASL Sounders. Youth soccer is huge in this city, a lot of people play the game. Amateur soccer is bigger. I mean dude, there’s amateur soccer every fucking where. A lot of people have traveled in Seattle, and have experienced the world’s game overseas, and know what it is supposed to be like. Lastly, and very importantly, I’d say that ECS was able to create a positive, very cool, intimidating atmosphere at Qwest field (now Century Link) for people that wanted to participate. You probably know this, but the whole lower lower bowl stands for the whole 90 minutes. That’s pretty fucking amazing even for Europe. We have amazing attendance even compared to Europe. I think we created a very cool atmosphere that invited people to participate, and said ‘you’re part of this, alright, Section 142 over there in Pub seats, you gotta help us out here.’ It also doesn’t hurt when your team is a good team. We’ve not had a losing season. And we’ve won trophies, but this season here, it could be the season. The first of many seasons. We have a very quality organization that pays attention to fans. Sometimes they don’t get it, sometimes there is too much Seahawks [influence]. They’re like ‘we’re the Seahawks, we know how to run the show.’ No, the fans run the show at Sounders games. For anyone to ask what is the reason, that’s a bad question. It wasn’t a perfect storm, but it was a great storm. A combination of a lot of weather patterns came together. Also, the way they released the club, when the Sounders started, they released the jersey, the logo, the name, we all voted on the name and there was a big drama over that. It was all timed perfectly, as soon as you got starved of Sounders information ‘BOOM, big fucking announcement.’ Very smart marketing. Urban, youthful marketing that’s focused on the fans.
Casey: How do you balance that though? You’ve told me you like The Pen at Safeco–
Greg: I like it for the women.
Casey: I hate The Pen because there is a spot in center field where you cannot see the field. There is a fireplace and couches, and you cannot see the field. I went in there when The Pen first opened, it was a Yankees series so there was a lot of people in there, and there was a fucking DJ, you couldn’t even hear what was going on, you couldn’t hear player announcements, you couldn’t hear cheers, and I walked back there and there was MMA on versus, and I can’t even remember what on the other TV–
Greg: And people were watching it?
Casey: They weren’t even watching that shit, but these people payed combined $120 maybe, to come to a baseball stadium and not watch a baseball game.
Greg: (shocked) Why would they do that?
Casey: Fuckin’ A dude, I wanted to kill all four of them. I hated them on site. Hate is a strong word, and I feel it strongly for those people, and I don’t know who they are. There’s plenty of things in the world to hate, I don’t hate much, I hate those people a lot.
Greg: It’s alright to hate. You better write about that.
Casey: I did, when I went in I was so disgusted I wrote about it. That used to be the best angle in the park, you go buy a shitty cheap ticket and stand in the bullpen.
Greg: But you never get a homerun. I want to catch a ball.
Casey: You play soccer dude, you’d have to catch it with your feet. I’ll catch it with my fucking teeth but you have to catch it with your feet.
Greg: My dream is to catch it with a beer. Everyone is scrambling and I just put my beer up, and then (acts like he’s drinking from baseball filled beer glass).
Casey: How much crossover is there between ECS and the Mariners fanbase? I imagine ECS members would puke at a Mariners game.
Greg: That’s probably a true statement, but we do have many members that are season ticket holders with the Mariners. One of our main members has season tickets out in right field, he got caught with an ECS shirt, on tape, catching a home run. I don’t think there’s much crossover, but there doesn’t have to be. We aren’t interested in having our name associated with baseball because we want to stay focused, I think it would be totally cool if someone like you used your clout with your website and said to the Mariners ‘hey, let’s take this King’s Court to a new level.’ The biggest thing in your way with baseball is tradition. I mean, I go to baseball games to look at Eastside chicks, you know what I mean? I mean it’s the Eastside that shows up to the game, and it’s great to look at, I mean, I’m a male. Take that out, don’t use—aw fuck it, I don’t give a shit if you use it. But there is no sport in America that is more closed to change than baseball. Baseball believes that its attraction is the mystique of the old, a supporter culture would be a huge fucking change.
Casey: We’ve talked about the fan experience. The ECS March is a beacon for fan experience. Standing in a crazy section is awesome, but it exists elsewhere. Tell me about the march and how it started.
Greg: The March was a tradition we had back in the USL days, when Sean started the group back in 2005. I think Fuel (the bar we were drinking at, and the starting line for the ECS March) opened in 2006. We all came here, and when we were all done drinking we decided ‘let’s head over together.’ When the Sounders came in, I was invited in because I was one of first Alliance Council members voted in, so I had access to Drew Carey. I said ‘ you know what we be a cool tradition?’ because we needed a tradition, because tradition gives you validity. We had a team here that re-branded, changed colors, but they still have a respect for the past, they celebrate the past, and they build on the past. I said to Drew ‘You know what would be cool? You take your marching band, and we’ll go ahead with our march to the match.”
Casey: I’m an ECS member. I have the 2012 ECS shirt, and I can’t wear that thing anywhere without someone noticing and starting a conversation with me, it’s like a brotherhood, do you get that?
Greg: I get that a lot in West Seattle, we have a lot of members over there. It’s an intense experience. For that reason it remains fixed in you. It’s like when—I don’t want to make this metaphor—it’s like when you have a very intense sex. You’re going to remember that time, and you’re going to relish it. This may be your first year and it’s very intense. Two or three years down the road you’ll be like ‘I was here, I’m used to this, this is normal.’ And it is a sense of brotherhood. Remember, we’re soccer fans in America. We’re still a niche. We’re still an insider community, and that’s what we do.
Casey: What is it like for you to sit in the supporters section at this point, in 2012?
Greg: There’s a certain sense of accomplishment, but I’m always hungry for more. I think that’s also how the Sounders are run. There’s no complacency. They aren’t happy with 32,000 season ticket holders, they want 40,000. I’m the same way. I want the whole south end to become what the sick supporter sections are like. I want to get more people doing what we do, not because I don’t like what they do, but because I think what we do is pretty good.